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Neal
    06/23/09 at 03:32 PM
Reply with quote#1

I’m having trouble keeping my car (77 vette) cool while cruising on the hwy. I’ve installed a stroked 454 now 496 into the car. The engine is a GM block with GM oval port heads, the heads have been ported and the block has had 4 bolt main caps installed to improve strength. The block has been bored .060 over and the rod length increased to yield 496 CI. I’m running a Lunati solid roller cam in the 260 duration, .700 lift with 112* sep. The engine has Ross pistons yielding 10:1 comp. The intake is a Holley strip dominator with a Holley 1000 CFM HP series carb. installed on it. I’m using a standard HEI with an Accel coil in the cap and a MSD high output digital module with RPM limiter. The base timing is set at 16* with centrifugal advance set to come in at 1000 rpm and full in at 2800 rpm. The vacuum advance is set to 10* max and is connected to a manifold vacuum source.  

 

The cooling system consists of a Dewitt radiator (direct fit) two 11” Spal fans, a Stewart stage IV aluminum CCW rotation pump and a Stewart modified high flow 180* T-stat. I’ve removed the auto-trans oil cooler lines form the radiator cooling coil and added a separate external cooler with its own fan controlled by a thermostat mounted under the car away from the radiator. I’ve also installed a large engine oil cooler in front of the radiator to help with the cooling. I’m planning to move the oil cooler form in front of the radiator to the rear of the car and add its own fan to help control the oil temps. The radiator fans are controlled by a Spal PWM controller it will start the first fan at half speed when the temp reaches 160* and ramp the fan speed up to high when the temp reaches 190*, when the first fan goes to high the controller will start the second fan on high, both fans will be running at high speed until the temp drops below 190*

 

I’ve tried 3 different radiators the first being a brass replacement 4 core design with two 12” fans then a universal Tru-Kool aluminum radiator with an 18” Mark VIII fan as a puller and two 12” fans as pushers and the engine oil cooler in front of the two 12” fans and the third being the current set-up with the Dewitt aluminum radiator and the dual 11” Spal fans.

 

I’ve installed a Zoops serpentine drive system and originally tried the Zoops high flow pump that came with the drive system but I had temp issues form the time I installed the engine so I switched to the Stewart pump but this did not change my temp issues.

 

I have decent control of the temps while idling and at low speed but once on the hwy the temp starts climbing and will settle out at around 220* to 230*. Once I slow down or stop and idle the temps will slowly come down to around 180* to 190* but it takes a while.

 

I’m running 4:11 gears in the rear so my cruise rpm are around 3000 at 60 mph.

 

I’ve tried different T-stats to try and change the water flow rate but this does not seem to make a difference. It appears that when I installed a Stant 180* t-stat that had a 1” opening the temps did appear to take longer to climb to 220* while on the hwy but it could have been that it was cooler that day versus the day I tested the Stewart high flow T-stat. I’ve even tried running without the T-stat but the temps were the same.

 

I have verified the temps with an IR gun, I have two temp indicators installed, one on the outlet of the intake and one on the low pressure side or the radiator. Once the engine heats up after being on the hwy I stop an check the temps, the temp on the inlet and the outlet of the radiator are the same (no temp drop across the radiator) at around 220* to 230*.

 

Might you have any ideas as to what might be my issue?

Howard
    06/23/09 at 03:44 PM
Reply with quote#2

This has to be something simple that is being overlooked.

Where is the radiator cap?
How do you fill the system?
Water or antifreeze?
Ignition timing?
Do the headers get extremely hot?

Neal
    06/24/09 at 05:51 AM
Reply with quote#3

The cap is on the low pressure side of the radiator, normal position, and I have installed one in the upper hose to fill and get all the air out.

I fill the system through the cap in the upper hose.

70% water, 1 bottle of water wetter and the rest anti-freeze.

Timing is set to 16* base, centrifugal advance set to come in at 1000 rpm and full in at 2800 rpm. The vacuum advance is set to 10* max, I have the vacuum connected to manifold vacuum.

The headers would get to 650* while idling, I wrapped them to reduce the under hood temps.




Howard
    06/24/09 at 04:26 PM
Reply with quote#4


Let's look at two options....and if these are not the culprits we will look some more.

Perhaps it's not full of water. This can prevent the cooling system from functioning because the lower hose can calapse or the water at the pump's inlet vaporizes, boils or cavatates....(I've heard smart people say all three ways).

The cap in the upper hose needs to be very high pressure to keep it from opening at high RPM and pushing water out.

With the engine cold...thermostat out...rev the engine to 4,000 RPMs...take the cap off the low pressure side of the radiator and look at the coolant level. If's down more than 1/2" there is excessive air in the system that is getting compressed by the pump pressure.

Jack the timing up until the car spark knocks, then back it up a couple of degrees. This is the correct timing regardless of what the indicator marks say. Low timing results in high exhaust heat and high coolant temps.


Neal
    06/24/09 at 07:47 PM
Reply with quote#5

The cap in the upper hose is a 24 lb cap, and the cap on the low pressure side of the radiator is a 16 lb cap.

Do I take the cap off while reving the engine to 4000 rpm?
Howard
    06/24/09 at 08:28 PM
Reply with quote#6

Yes, if the engine is cold there will be a vacuum at the cap that is on the low pressure side. If the water goes down when you rev the motor, there is trapped air in the system.

This trick came from Ford's NASCAR program in the 60's. A very good test.
Neal
    06/24/09 at 09:19 PM
Reply with quote#7

Got it

I advanced the timing as far as I could and still able to crank the car. I advanced the timing until it bucked the starter than backed it down a small amount. Got a late day tomorrow but I may be able to get a test drive in late.

I've never had trouble with spark knock, always wondered if something may be wrong there. I was able to advance the timing and get about another 10* at idle, was at 16 base now is at around 26*.

I'll pop the cap off while still cold before the test drive.

Thanks
Neal
    06/25/09 at 10:20 PM
Reply with quote#8

Had a late day today no time to test, I'll try tomorrow and report back.

Neal
Neal
    06/28/09 at 10:25 AM
Reply with quote#9

OK I raised the timing and took a drive, the engine bucked the starter when I cranked it when cold, once warmed up it starts fine. The temps ran about 205* to 210* for a while while crusing around 3000 rpm but once I ran it hard a little they crep up to around 230*. Once I stoped and let it idle the temps did come back down, they seem to come down quicker.

I'm going to remove the T-stat and check for air in the system now, I'll post my findings latter today.

Thanks Neal
Neal
    06/28/09 at 11:29 AM
Reply with quote#10

Pulled the T-stat out and did the recomended test. Radiator was full of water.

When I removed the cap the water was spraying out the opening from the tubes and out the opening were the cap goes.


Howard
    06/28/09 at 11:39 AM
Reply with quote#11

Is your radiator a double or triple pass design?

Neal
    06/28/09 at 12:21 PM
Reply with quote#12

Double

Howard
    06/28/09 at 12:34 PM
Reply with quote#13

OK. A double pass radiator doesn't have the cap on the low pressure side of the system. The test only works with single pass radiators like the Vette came with from the factory. I thought your radiator was a direct replacement. I hope you didn't get too wet.

I think your cooling system is OK....your engine is just making too much heat.

Since it responded to the timing stuff...I would borrow an OEM distributor and see what that does.

And last but not least.....if the camshaft is indexed too far advanced you exhaust temps will always be high and the coolant will always be hot. But this is very rare.

Howard Stewart
Neal
    06/28/09 at 03:49 PM
Reply with quote#14

I may have used the wrong term for the radiator its a replacement radiator of the same design as the OEM but made of aluminum and of a higher capacity. Now that I think about it I belive its a single pass. The inlet side is at the top on the left side and the outlet is at the bottom on the right side. The coolent passes form the left to the right. There is only one direction of flow through the core, from left to right.

Howard
    06/28/09 at 05:10 PM
Reply with quote#15

OK,
When I've done this test it has been were the radiator cap is on a surge tank rather than the radiator. I'm surprised that the water is moving through the core tubes so hard that it makes it impossible to see if the level of the water in the tank is going down.

I going to have to stick with the engine is making too much heat rather than the cooling system not working properly.

Let me know how this turns out.


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